Depression: Younger generations’ well-being at a glance – VoxEurop (English)

A new report published by Eurofound casts light on the issue of depression among young people in Europe.


This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://voxeurop.eu/en/2019/depression-5123490

Mich überrascht das Ergebnis. Eigentlich hätte ich angenommen, dass das Depressionsrisiko in den Staaten, die wirtschaftlich schwächeln und eine relativ hohe Arbeitslosigkeit sowie ein weniger entwickeltes Sozialsystem haben, höher als in den wirtschaftlich dynamischen Wohlfahrtsstaaten Europas ist. Offensichtlich führen wirtschaftlicher Erfolg und hohe soziale Absicherung nicht zu weniger Depression. Vielleicht liegt der Grund darin, dass der wirtschaftliche Erfolg mit einem höheren Stresslevel erkauft wird. Das Leben in wirtschaftlich schwächeren Staaten scheint wohl gemächlicher und weniger stressiger zu sein.

Der berufliche Stress kann zu burnout führen . Aber viel wichtiger ist Depressionen weil man nicht mehr gebraucht wird . Man sich nicht mal selber braucht .Arme Menschen , ohne soziale Absicherung , haben viel ernstere Probleme , aber dieses nicht . Sie müssen jeden Tag um ihre Existenz kämpfen .Und da geht es nicht nur um Depressionen , besonders junge Leute bringt das zu Alkohol und Drogen .

Meinst du, Depression wäre in erste Linie ein Problem der gehobenen Gehaltsklassen? Meinst du, dass Menschen die um ihre tägliche Existenz kämpfen müssen keine Zeit für Depressionen haben? Ich habe dazu keine klare Meinung. Vermutlich hängt Depression, abgesehen von möglichen genetischen Dispositionen, mit einer Sinnkrise zusammen. Wenn ich in meinem Leben und in meinen Tätigkeiten keinen rechten Sinn mehr sehe, dann befällt mich eine allgemeine Schwermut und Lustlosigkeit. Aber alle Erklärungsversuche machen mir die vorgestellten Ergebnisse und Länderunterschiede nicht plausibel. Ein anderes Thema: Mir fällt schon seit einiger Zeit auf, dass immer weniger Personen hier am Forum teilnehmen. Ist das Interesse am europäischen Projekt zurückgegangen? Oder trifft voreuropa mit der Auswahl seiner Artikel nicht den Nerv der Zeit? So hat voxeurop nicht einen einzigen Artikel über den Personalpoker bei der Besetzung der europäischen Spitzenpositionen veröffentlicht, obwohl das Thema im Zentrum aller Zeitungen - zumindest in den deutschsprachigen Ländern - stand. Mich würde eine Antwort schon interessieren. Vielleicht kann sich das Team voreurop dazu äußern.

Ich frage mich auch wo die alle hin sind . Ich kann keine brauchbaren Alternativen finden , es gibt keine paneuropäische Foren . Könnte sein das bei jenen die besonders aktiv waren das Forum zu persönlich wurde . Jeder Standpunkt war klar , und Dispute gerieten in eine Endlosschleife . Die eher geringe Zahl der Aktiven tat auch etwas dazu .

I’m not surprised with the results because there is a strict difference how people live: in northern and mostly also central-Western Europe people live individualistically in an atomized way. They live either single or in so called “nuclear families” (mother, father, children till 18 years of age) which means that most of their lives they are lonely. It is symptomatic that they rely on state and communicate only with institutions (i.e. people that represent state institutions) where they pay taxes and state cares for them. They pursue careers and when they retire, they don’t know ho to live (they don’t have friends and don’t know how to get along with family, etc)… BTW, it is not only in Europe but it is most extreme in Japan, where such phenomena have official names - like hikikomori, shinai shokogun in the case of young people, or the phenomenon of seniors who want to go to jail in order to be cared for and not to be lonely, see https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-47033704 .

In contrast, in most developing countries and in southern Europe, people are used to live in wider families and tribal communities which makes their lives more stable, make them less dependent on state and economic performance and more resilient to melancholy and depressions.

It is important to note that these differences have serious consequences for immigration that arrogant Western European politicians don’t understand: for example, the immigrants used to living in wider communities will resist to being forced to abandon their ways of living that provides them feeling of security even after migrating to northern Europe. This is also why it is hard for individuals to abandon their families or tribes and rather submit to family habits they don’t like (e.g. forced marriages) rather than being cursed by the family… It also means that any idea to scatter immigrants across whole country up to small villages will not work because they need their communities… It also means that the self-contained communities tend to soon dominate the new space where locals have lived in atomized way relying on state without support of wider community.

One thing pulls the other after itself. High social security also has negative consequences. With regard to migration, it is a question of borders. Thanks to Schengen, there are no borders within the EU, and Gypsies and other groups , which appreciate the high social standards are attracted to the respective countries. On the other hand, Germany wants immigration because of its demographics and Europeans are easier to integrate. It also brings skilled workers and academics from other EU countries to Germany, and they are welcome. We want the one, but not the others. But it is not our thing alone. The countries of emigration are missing the one , but not the others.It brings harm and benefits to every side.It is a European problem that is completely normal in the world. This is how it works in the USA and in China. With the difference that the social standards and professional opportunities there are not as different as within the EU.But no legislator can unify that. Social standards and work perspectives are interdependent, and both are lived culture and identity. It will be unified, but by the people. And that makes winners and losers. A region has to live with being a loser. But can a nation do that too? Next point regarding immigration. The from outside Europe. The problem is that the external borders of the EU are not working. This is not only a problem of lifesavers ala Rackete, the biggest problem is that we ourselves do not respect the borders…We have agreed that EU citizens have the same rights throughout the EU. But why do we open our social standards with the resulting claims for the world? This is especially a German problem, and it has to do with the ignorant politicians who oppose any nationalism , consistently through to self-abandonment.

It is also dependent on ideology. As we know, it was one of the goals of communism to make people dependent on state (and the Communist party that represented the state). To achieve this, they needed to rip up the traditional family ties and make people communicate individually with the state (via institutions, Communist party committees, etc.). That’s why the communist states were massively building small apartments for “young families” in tower-blocks in town suburbs, and thus managed to break the traditional family ties by taking young generation from multi-generation families in villages where members of the wider families were able to help one another relatively independently of the state, and make them live in isolation as anonymous entities among thousands of similar anonymous nuclear families where care of family members was replaced by institutional care (day nurseries and kindergartens, eventide homes, etc.)… It is best captured by the song Číslo na zápěstí by Karel Kryl (here with lyrics in German: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBNA9eBuTlY)…

Such a development has serious consequences today: these people who were grabbed out of their wider families as young are old today, they live alone in small anonymous apartments without gardens or anything to do, so they spend their days lonely following various fake-news media (especially those prepared by Russians who well understand the situation and sentiments of these people; and denounce West thus further increasing frustration of these people and makes them even more estranged from the young generation). And they represent in absolute numbers a strong voting power and therefore are able to effectively revert progress that the young generation seeks… The serious media as the public Czech radio is aware of such a situation and try to win hearts of at least some older people - for example, every Christmas they have a massive action that young people can fulfill wishes of old people living lonely. These wishes are often not materialistic (e.g. take them to a trip) and have enormous response; however, they still cannot make up for the missing wider family relationships…

I mentioned the immigration in my last post because it is obvious that most countries in the world haven’t gone through such a process and therefore and it must be kept in mind when judging events and dealing with such societies who don’t live individualistically. We cannot apply the criteria of individualistic societies to them. For example, such a mistake was made by Mrs. Šojdrová, a Czech MEP who was not happy that the Czech politicians refuse immigration from Middle East and wanted to find underage orphans in refugee camps in Greece to provide them new homes and state care in the Czech Republic (children should guarantee that they do not pose a security risk). She was indeed able to find orphans without biological parents there but they always had a community of wider relatives and preferred to stay with their community even in worse conditions of the refugee camps rather than be individually relocated to a place where they receive institutional care by unrelated people. That well illustrates that being an orphan in a society where people are used to live in wider families is something completely different from being an orphan in an individualistic society where death of your parents means that you really don’t have anybody who would indeed care for you - you only have state that provides you care via paid people (either institutional care in children homes or professional foster care) but otherwise you are emotionally alone.

I mean you are wrong. What you describe meets in many ways the formation of the proletariat. That was before communism. Agriculture gave fewer and fewer people an income and farmers became wage workers. This was in times of high birth rates and not everyone in the village could claim the inheritance of their parents. Small apartments in the city were dependent on the income. In the GDR, the birth rates were higher than in the FRG and I do not think that there had the family more meaning. Individualism is Western.2—Also, I mean you’re wrong. Fake News is like populism - oftenused as a degradation of unpleasant truths. Trump is linked to fake news and populism, as are Poland, Hungary, Italy and the UK. German media in the way defame the politics of other countries, if they do not like this policy. I do not need Russians to accuse this and to distrust the German media. And East Germans distrust that more than West Germans.The former constitutional protection president Hans Georg von Maaßen who was dismissed by Merkel because he saw a left-wing threat, compared the German television with the GDR television. At that time it was about Chemnitz and the demonstrations there. Media and politics, even Merkel personally spread lies that Maaßen denied. The comparison with the GDR TV he made in the NZZ (Neue Zürcher Zeitung), he said the Swiss press is for him what for the GDR citizens west TV was…

And to that what the German youth wants, which is hampered by the old ones. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EAEuylVXoAATn-A.png:large

Deine Erklärungen haben etwas für sich. Ich denke auch, dass die im Norden und Westen Europas fortgeschrittene Individualisierung Menschen anfälliger für Depressionen macht. Allerdings heißt Individualisierung nicht zwangsläufig, kein familiäres und freundschaftliches Netzwerk zu haben. Ich kann für mich sagen, dass die Solidarität in meiner Familie funktioniert. Allerdings fällt mir gerade ein weiterer Grund für die größere Anfälligkeit für Depressionen in westlichen Gesellschaften ein: Die zunehmende Lösung von der Religion. Religionen sind Sinnsysteme, die dem gläubigen Menschen Richtschnur und Halt für sein Leben geben. Ein Mensch, der sich von seiner Religion entfernt hat, muss daher Ersatz finden, um seinem Leben einen Sinn zu geben. Und das gelingt nicht jedem.

Bei Religion geht es weniger um Sinnsuche als um die Zugehörigkeit zu einer Gemeinschaft . Die kommunistische Ideologie war auch Religionsersatz , das was auch heute noch die Ideologien für viele Menschen sind . Ich nehme es Flatus übel das er den Osten einerseits und die Alten anderenseits als das Problem sieht . Die Alten beklagen einen Werteverfall .

Ce qui est dit des jeunes dépressifs pourraient être écrit pour les retraités dépressifs aussi. Est-ce un état général pour les Européens ?

European citizens knowing they own not just one level of citizenship but two aren’t the mass. If it were so, no doubt that all human, natural and financial ressources of Europe could be used much more cleverly than during the three previous mandatories of the EC. When social contracts and public services of west are now at the level of east and central Europe, instead of being brought up for all at a scandinavian level, it’s a scandal. Education, health, security, aso are qualified as costs, when they stand as the better ROI you can get when in public responsibilities. Why not Tdem, why risks of a new war in Eire, why could 65 millions of european citizens lose this citizenship, why the oldests considered as products and not equals in law with others ? Just because EU isn’t a State of law responsible toward the european citizen. That, and just that. Don’t ask me with questions : Swiss, Austria and Germany have good working regimes. Extrapolation of the mix can be done in three clics and three weeks. And the ECB’s production can make a large smiling on every european citizen face, old or not.

Yes, the ECB can produce money without end. But then just rise the prices. If it reacts again with more money, the prices continue to rise. At some point you will make euro coins to buttons because the euro is not even worth the material. Printing money creates no value but is first and foremost a redistribution. Our work should distribute the money, not the ECB. Otherwise, work loses its value.

Indeed these data are weird. Especially in case of Poland, where number of people with depression is far greater than it officially is known. Many people who have depression are not diagnosed with this ailement and they do not take part in any kind of treatement. I can speak of my own example of a person who had a nightmarish kind of depression in my early 20’s, which was so strong than I early took my own life. The main reason for depression was family problems and bullying. To this very day, remnants of this ailement take big role in my relations with the outer world. I can add, that many of my posts, written here, its aggressive or arrogant stance was an effect of my depression and anger to the outside world. I can only say, that the best way to fight depression is to have positive stance to oneself and self-belief. We live in very brutalised world, full of hypocrisy and hubris. Only people who have the will to find the inner power are able to fight depression lonely. Many need professional help.